There Is No AI (It's Just People) with Jaron Lanier

# StarTalk: There Is No AI Really (It’s Just People) w/ Jaron Lanier (Transcript) - The Singju Post Source: [https://singjupost.com/startalk-there-is-no-ai-really-its-just-people-w-jaron-lanier-transcript/](https://singjupost.com/startalk-there-is-no-ai-really-its-just-people-w-jaron-lanier-transcript/) **Editor’s Note:***In this special edition episode of StarTalk, host Neil deGrasse Tyson, co\-host Gary O’Reilly, and comedian Negin Farsad sit down with computer scientist and “father of virtual reality” Jaron Lanier\. Together, they explore the evolution of the internet, the societal impacts of social media addiction, and why we should view artificial intelligence as a human collaboration rather than an independent creature\. The conversation dives deep into alternate tech business models, data dignity, and finding a constructive path forward for the future of technology\.* **TRANSCRIPT:** ## Introduction: Meet Jaron Lanier NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Why do UFO sightings persist? Are at least some of them figments of our imagination, or are we missing something? In my latest book,*Take Me to Your Leader*, I actually explore what’s possible in this universe, given the universal laws of physics\. If the aliens are out there, the laws of physics will dictate how they find us\. I also narrated the audiobook, so I’m duly informed that the audiobook and the print version are available now wherever books are sold\. This is StarTalk Special Edition, which means I got Gary O’Reilly, co\-host here\. Gary, how you doing, man? GARY O’REILLY: I’m good, Neil\. Over in London\. London though, so slightly remote\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Okay, only slightly\. On the scale of the universe, you’re right next door\. I also have with me Negin Farsad\. Negin, welcome back to StarTalk\. NEGIN FARSAD: Hello, I’m so excited to be back\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: It’s been too long, I miss you\. NEGIN FARSAD: Absolutely\. I have to say, you don’t look a day over the last time we talked about dark matter\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Okay, now let me figure out how old I would need to be for that\. You’re a comedian, you’re also a TED Fellow for social justice\. That’s a thing? NEGIN FARSAD: I mean, I do comedy that tries to save the world\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Okay\. NEGIN FARSAD: And it’s worked, guys\. That’s why we live in utopia\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON:*Fake the Nation*, that’s the coolest title ever\. NEGIN FARSAD: That’s right\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: And I’ll never soon forget the title of your book from a few years ago\. NEGIN FARSAD:*How to Make White People Laugh*\. Yeah\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: That’s best title ever\. NEGIN FARSAD: Thank you so much\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Yeah, yeah, so Gary, what have you researched for today? It’s got something to do with the internet and it’s going to mess up the world, something like that? ## Is the Internet Too Far Gone? GARY O’REILLY: Oh yeah, let’s get the good stuff out\. So is the internet too far gone in our lifetimes? The internet has changed from a novelty to a central influence in our lives, and now with the advent of AI, hawked as the potential doomsday for humankind\. Well, is it? Isn’t it? Today we’re going to talk about whether that’s the case, how the internet influences our world, and how we can come together and fix it or not\. So, Neil, if you will introduce our guest, and I think this is just the right person to discuss this topic\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Yeah, there’s a uniquely qualified person in the world to address those issues and more, and I’ve got him sitting right here\. Jaron Lanier, dude\. JARON LANIER: Hey, how are ya? NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Welcome to StarTalk\. JARON LANIER: Well, you know, I think you can speak a little lower than me, but that does not mean I will not attempt it\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Yeah, we don’t use the word polymath too freely today because there aren’t many folks, there’s so much specialization, but if I were to bring that into the 21st century, I would apply it to you\. You’re a computer scientist, but interdisciplinary\. What’s your title? Prime Unifying Scientist at Microsoft? That’s a title? Is that on your business card? JARON LANIER: It actually is, yeah\. Okay, it’s actually a joke\. It’s Office of the Chief Technology Officer, Prime Unifying Scientist, so it spells out OCTOPUS\. And there are several reasons for that\. One is I used to study cephalopod cognition because it’s absolutely fascinating\. But then there’s also that some accuse me of starting to look like one myself\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Oh, that happens\. That can happen\. JARON LANIER: That can happen\. That can happen\. And so between those two things, The Octopus, yes\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: I’m just impressed that that’s even a title that one can ascend to\. Are you going to break the mold in your— can anyone become you in this? The answer is no, just say no\. JARON LANIER: Well, I will tell you one thing about my role\. I have an agreement with them where I can speak my mind, including being encouraged to criticize the company itself, so long as I’m clear that I’m not speaking for Microsoft\. And somehow they haven’t imploded\. I think it actually— I would like to see more people with that role in the tech industry\. Okay, so in that sense, I don’t want to be the last\. I’m aware of one other maybe, who would be Vint Cerf over at Google, but I think we’re the only two\. And we really desperately need more of us\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Because you know when someone has— you know where they’re clamming shut on what you really want them to say about what they’re doing\. You know it in an interview, right? JARON LANIER: Yeah, and in Silicon Valley, that’s like 90% of the time\. ## The Father of Virtual Reality NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Yeah, yeah\. So you’re considered the father of virtual reality, in part because you even coined the term? JARON LANIER: Yeah, okay, look, I was young, all right? I think there’s— NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: You’re responsible\. NEGIN FARSAD: Were you on drugs, maybe? Was there that involved? JARON LANIER: I’ve never used drugs, and I blame virtual reality for that\. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Oh, it’s served that role\. NEGIN FARSAD: You haven’t needed it, yeah\. JARON LANIER: Virtual reality has served that role\.